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Welcome to America's town meeting from New York City.

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Tonight's subject, flying saucers, fact or illusion.

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Our speakers are Major Donnelly Keough, author of Flying Saucers from Outer Space and Jonathan

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N. Leonard, science editor of Time Magazine and author of Flight Into Space.

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For scores of generations, civilized men have recorded astonishing descriptions of atmospheric

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phenomena and awesome things hovering in the skies above them.

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Mysterious floating objects, flashes and fireballs, and luminescence manifestations of every description

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are recounted in the annals of western civilization as far back as Rome and Tyre.

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Speculation as to their origin was, of course, largely conditioned upon the degree of scientific

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knowledge at the disposal of the observer.

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Generally, however, they were isolated instances, unrelated, and devoid of organized study anywhere.

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Against this historic background, the controversy which has developed in the United States since

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1947 over the so-called flying saucer sightings are absolutely without precedent or parallel.

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An oppressive accumulation of approximately 800 unexplained reports has not only been

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recorded the widest possible publicity, intriguing the public everywhere and taxing the credibility

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of many, but has by now enlisted on a national scale the ingenuity of some of our top airmen,

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scientists and military experts.

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Curiously enough, it is said that more than 18% of these sightings were reported by trained

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military personnel and some 11% were reported by Air Force pilots aloft.

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Of all sightings recorded, somewhat less than 15% are reported to be classified as unexplained.

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To delve into the mystery of these unexplained phenomena, the resources of the United States

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and other nations have mastered as strategic points, scores of special cameras, radar installations

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and other detected devices, meant by trained personnel.

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Meantime, the controversy rages unabated, between those who believe that the so-called

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flying saucers are facts and those who dismiss them as an illusion.

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Tonight, Town Hall is proud to present two distinguished exponents of each of these viewpoints.

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Our first guest is Major Donald E. Kehoe, author of Flying Saucers from outer space.

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Born in Iowa, Major Kehoe attended the United States Naval Academy and was commissioned

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with the rank of lieutenant in the U.S. Marine Corps.

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The following year, he finished a training course for naval aviators at Pensacola.

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From 1925 to 7, he was chief of information of the Arnaud X branch of the Department of

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Commerce and was assigned as manager of the U.S. tour of the Josephine IV North Pole plane,

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which flew around the country with Floyd Bennett and Bert Blanchen.

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In 1949, Major Kehoe was assigned to investigate the Flying Saucer mystery for True Magazine.

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The Flying Saucers are real was his first book on this subject.

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It was followed by Flying Saucers from outer space, published in November of this year.

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Town Hall is proud to welcome Major Kehoe.

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In 1948, like many other pilots, I scoffed at the Saucer reports.

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Now, after a five-year investigation, I believe they are real.

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There's only one way to decide this question fairly.

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By examining the official reports, neither my opinion nor Mr. Lennart says any value

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unless it is backed by the evidence.

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In the last five years, I've seen hundreds of Air Force reports covering worldwide sightings.

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The official records cleared for me have included the most baffling cases and intelligence files,

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cases used in the secret briefing of high government officials.

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These reports were made by Air Force Navy, Marine Corps, and airline pilots.

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By expert radar man, guided missile tracker, and other trained observers.

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The official conclusions were released to me by Air Technical Intelligence.

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Since Mr. Lennart cannot be expected to know these hundreds of reports,

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I shall refer mainly to official cases from my book, which he has reviewed.

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I repeat, these are Air Force intelligence reports certified by official documents in the book.

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They are not from anonymous sources as Mr. Lennart mistakenly stated.

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These sightings were analyzed by intelligence officers or by scientists under secret contracts.

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In case after case, pilots and radar men insist that the objects maneuvered under intelligent control

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open at fantastic speeds.

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In the last two months, reports have rapidly increased.

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As a result, new orders have been given to pilots, which I shall explain later.

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Other governments have also taken new steps.

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In Canada, a special observatory has been set up to track sources and learn their means of propulsion.

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Mr. W. B. Smith, the official in charge, with a frankness unknown here,

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publicly admitted that sources are probably from outer space.

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In our Air Force, only one intelligence officer, Colonel William C. O'Dell,

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has been allowed to make such a statement and then without use of his rank.

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But this conviction is privately shared by many in the Air Force.

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Certain airline pilots, after sighting strange machines,

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have publicly announced their belief that the sources are observation devices from another planet.

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The advanced race is making a long survey of the Earth,

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delaying contact until they understand every phase of our life and can gauge our probable reaction.

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On the basis of the evidence, I believe this is the answer, fantastic as it may seem.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Thank you, Major Kehoff.

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Our next guest is Jonathan Norton-Lennett, science editor of Time Magazine.

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Mr. Lennett joined the weekly news magazine staff as far news writer in 1943.

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He became Time Science Editor in 1945.

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Born in some of the Massachusetts, he attended public schools there and entered Hollywood University in 1921.

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Originally, with the New York Times, he became a freelance writer.

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And for the next ten years, turned out innumerable books and articles,

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including the enjoyment of science, crusades of chemistry, and his most recent book, Flight Into Space,

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a philosophical but factual view of the fact and fancies of spaceflight, which was published in October of this year.

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We are proud to welcome Mr. Jonathan Norton-Lennett to America's Town Meeting.

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The question, do you believe in flying saucers has come to mean, do you believe that flying saucers are spaceships from a foreign planet?

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I do not believe it because I have seen no evidence for it.

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All I have seen is reports of strange sights in the sky.

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Most of them have been explained in unsensational ways.

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And most of the rest were so poorly reported that no conclusion is possible.

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But even if many unexplained saucers had been seen, they would not necessarily be spaceships.

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To call them spaceships is jumping to an extremely unlikely conclusion.

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It is explaining a small mystery by pinning it on a big mystery.

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The ancient Greeks could not explain lightning.

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So they gave up and called it a weapon of the God Zeus.

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This was no explanation at all.

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The flying saucer cutists are doing the same thing.

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To explain a few puzzling reports, they are dreaming up spaceships.

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And they give them a godlike ability to violate all known physical laws.

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The world is full of mysteries.

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And the way to solve them is to observe them and study them carefully.

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This is what the Air Force has been doing.

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And it says that it has no evidence that flying saucers are spaceships.

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People who say that the Air Force is lying about this and that it is deliberately concealing

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a threatened invasion from space are accusing it of something close to treason.

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I do not think that they are justified.

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Spaceships are not impossible theoretically.

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The human race can build them if it makes the Air Force.

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And there may be races in space that have already done so.

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At least I cannot prove that there are not.

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But to say that flying saucers are spaceships, just because a few of their reports are hard to explain,

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is naive and primitive thinking.

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It is like explaining lightning by calling it the weapon of a god.

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Thank you very much, Mr. Linit.

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Major Kehoe, before we go into our exchange of views, and I know they're going to be sharp this evening,

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I was intrigued by a statement which you made in your opening presentation.

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And I'd like to ask if you might not wish to elaborate on it.

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You said that during the last two months reports on unidentified flying objects have rapidly increased.

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And then you said that as a result of this, new orders have been given to pilots.

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And you would explain that later.

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I want to go ahead and explain that to us now.

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Yes, I shall.

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The Air Force, through the maps intelligence, that is military air transport intelligence,

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are sent word to all airline pilots.

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And instead of waiting after they sight an unidentified object in the air,

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waiting until they land to ride up the report or be interrogated,

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they are immediately to get on the radio and give a running account of what they see.

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This was confirmed to me by the Airline Policy Association and also by Air Force Public Information.

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The same order has been relayed to all military pilots, and presumably to those in the Navy and the Marine Corps.

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I see. Mr. Leonard, do you have any comment to make on that?

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Well, I think it's a fine thing. Sure.

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Why not? It's a lot of controversy on this thing, and Air Force has been accused of concealing evidence.

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It's a very good thing to tell the pilots to report right off.

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But this shows a great deal of concern, which the Air Force at the same time disavows.

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It says we're not concerned, there's nothing to it.

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And at the same time, they give these orders and tell everybody to get in the information as rapidly as possible.

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I don't think they're concerned about spaceships. I think they're concerned about the publicity they're getting.

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They're concerned about the objects.

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Well, gentlemen, that brings us, I think, to the very first point,

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which the average American would like to have clarified and discussed this evening.

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What are the observers seeing in Europe?

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Are they seeing something or are they seeing nothing?

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Is it imagination or is it factual that they are seeing something?

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Want me to answer that?

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I think they're seeing something. I think that, good many of these people are perfectly sincere.

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There are some jokers and liars, some drunks, no doubt, but I think good many of them see something.

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What they see is another question.

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Do you have your opinion, Mr. Linder, that's actually what they may be actually seeing?

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I think they see a great variety of things. I think they see all reflections from the tailpin

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of aluminum airplanes. You can see them at a much greater distance than you can see an airplane.

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They see weather balloons. I think in the case of the more mystifying reports,

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they see various kinds of optical effects. They aren't optical illusions anymore than a rainbow is.

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A rainbow is an effect, an optical effect. It's very real. It's so. We know how it works.

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And there are a great many other ways that lights can be apparently displaced and made to move.

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The common mirage of this water in the road is a very common example. Every auto owner knows.

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You see the sky apparently in the road. And that's true of a great many other optical effects.

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Major Key, how would you subscribe to that theory?

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No, I'm afraid I can't. That might be true in many cases of untrained observers.

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People will be honestly mistaken. But when you take hundreds of airline pilots,

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radar men, weather bureau observers who are trained to recognize such things, and for

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year after year they have been reporting these objects, many of which are confirmed by a radar

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simultaneously, prove that the object was real and that was under intelligent control maneuvering.

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And many of the cases of which I can only mention a few tonight have so stated that the answer was

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unknown. And in the analysis, they stated the object seemed to be under intelligent control.

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Well, Mr. Leonard, I believe you stated at the outset that you felt that there were only a few

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puzzling reports. Now, Major, I know that you disagree with that. Do you have any idea, however,

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as to how many reports are puzzling or are unsolved so far?

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I don't think there are very many. I think there are many reports which are put down by the Air Force

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as unidentified. And they may be, and in most cases are unidentified because the evidence given

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is extremely sketchy. I heard of one example, for instance, of a man who called up very excited

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me and said something like this. He said, I saw something flying by. It looked like a bird,

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but it was flying a lot faster than any bird ought to fly. What was it? Well, the Air Force put that

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down as unexplained and listed the thing as a UFO, I think Major Kehoe calls it an unexplained

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flying object. Major Kehoe, do you agree with that? Well, I would like to give a report by, let us say,

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someone a little more trained. On October 29th, over Hempstead, Long Island, two jet pilots were

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on a mission, spotted a very bright, white light, and they tried to close in. And the machine,

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whatever it was, tightened up. They were unable to get inside this turn, and finally, after trying

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to match the machine's performance for several minutes, they gave up. Now, here's the statement

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that the senior pilot gave to intelligence. Based on my experience in fighter tactics,

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it is my opinion that the object was controlled by something having visual contact with it.

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The power and acceleration were beyond the capability of any known U.S. aircraft. And below

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this, the wing intelligence officer added, it is believed this report is based on reliable and

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verifiable observation that's an efficient intelligence report. How many reports such as

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Dr. and Dr. Miss Leonard, but how many reports of that type do you feel that there are on the

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books now, Major? At least 400. I have some of the key cases right here, which prove that the

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objects are real, that they are under control, and that many of the people who saw them are convinced

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that there was some kind of revolutionary machine. Mr. Leonard, do you feel there's any pattern in

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these reports that the Major has cited? Yes, I think there's a pattern. Some of these facts are

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similar. But I'd like to say a little bit about these trained observers. The pilot, the airline

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pilot or a fighter pilot, generally a very fine guy, some of my best friends are pilots. But he is

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very rarely a physicist. He very rarely understands the effects of refraction. I think if you question,

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you'd find that they know very little about such things. And so when you say a trained observer,

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you mean that he's been trained to recognize certain definite things. And when he comes up

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against something, which isn't in the book, he often misinterprets it very widely. And I think

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is the case in a Major Keohler just cited. But you do feel that he saw something, however what he saw

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was not any kind of a space machine. No, and I think he jumped to the conclusion that it was

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intelligently controlled. It was a very, very long jump. Well, speaking of intelligently controlled

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incidents, I think almost everyone is aware of the so-called citing that Washington several months

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back. And I wonder if you would care to discuss that as an example of either accidental or perhaps

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controlled performance. Major, would you like to begin a discussion of that? Yes, I should. I

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investigated that for six weeks after the two weekend incidents. I talked with all of the

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radar men who were in the control center with the radar engineer with Dr. John Hagen, the chief radio

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astronomer of the Navy, with Bonn-Rochney of the Weather Bureau, their radar expert, with the pilot

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who cited these things in the air, with the radar men at other stations. These things were

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triangulated from free radar stations. They were seen simultaneously in the air at exactly the

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point where the radar sets showed them. They showed the same maneuvers, the same speeds,

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which were reported visually by observers in the air and on the ground. And later on, I was told

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from Air Force Technical Intelligence Center that this principle applies. The same thing that they

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added in another similar case, the electronic or visual mirage of meteorological phenomenon is out

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of the question, is the radar set was on high beam and both were not occurred simultaneously in the

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same place. Now, this was ruled out completely, although at the Air Force Conference in July,

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it was suggested that temperature inversion was probably the answer. Later on, I asked the Air

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Force to designate an official spokesman who would give me what they considered the answer.

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We went into it, I presented all the evidence and gave him the temperature inversion on that

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night, which was less than one and a half degrees. This spokesman then told me and allowed me to

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give it as the official Air Force Force viewpoints. But with such a low inversion, it was impossible

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for temperature inversion to have been the answer and the case remain unexplained and it still is.

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Hello, Mr. Leonard, how would you explain the Washington fighting?

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Well, as Sam said, through time, I got a report on that immediately. In fact, I got

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a telephone report from the inside of the radar station where the observations were being made.

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And one of our men was there right on the spot. And I had very great doubts about this. It seemed

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to be a very curious, panicky situation going on around these boys. And so one thing I did was to

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ask whether these objects had been seen on radars at a flight distance from Washington. I could

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find no one, no radar that had seen them except in the media facility of Washington.

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Then I also asked about, they crawled up jets of course to come down there and defend the White

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House and Congress and the Federal Reserve Bank and other such things from flying sources. And

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they just came over from Delaware and they got there pretty soon and they crisscrossed all around

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Washington. They found those such things. So I decided there wasn't very much to it. And then

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when Air Force laid out, came out with an official statement on the subject that there wasn't anything

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much to it. Of course, Major Kehoe says that they didn't, but actually they did come out with a

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statement that this was caused by temperature inversions. I think they had a lot more information

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than can be gathered in the newspapers and by talking to individuals who, having seen something,

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are committed to stand by it. Now before there's any more said about official statements to Air

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Force, I'd like to read part of a letter. I thought that there would be remarks about the official

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attitude of the Air Force. So I called up the Air Force and asked them, this is a letter on the

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station area of the Department of the Air Force, Washington, the office of the secretary. That's

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the secretary of the Air Force and it's as high as you can get. It's signed by Colonel Max B. Boyd,

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chief of information division, office of public information. General Smith has told me of your

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need for a statement from the Air Force concerning flying saucers. The Air Force position concerning

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the unexplained aerial phenomena has been restated recently in the enclosed fact sheet, which I

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hope will be useful to you. You may be interested also in another recent Air Force statement which

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said after reviewing its massive reports and presenting the better documented ones to highly

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confident scientific advisors, the Air Force has found that there is absolutely no proof in these

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reports that space travel from another planet is going on. Either of these statements may be

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attributed to the Air Force or to an Air Force spokesman. Now this is a, if I will read on occasion

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some of the things from that fact sheet. One of them is about the same sort of thing. It says that

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no authentic physical evidence has been received establishing the existence of spaceships from

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other planets. Well Mr. Lundiff, I may interrupt, is there any evidence or any statement by the

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Air Force which would deny for example that these sightings are sightings of solid objects controlled

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by intelligent procedure? Well if you, if you ruled out that they were, the Air Force also ruled out

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that they are their own guided missiles and they ruled out that they are also not guided missiles from

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foreign countries. And if you ruled those things out and they still say that they are not

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in the planetary, why they must be something that can be explained in a much simpler way.

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Well gentlemen do you feel that there is anything being withheld by the Air Force or the Pentagon?

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Films or photographs or secret analyses perhaps which the public has the right to know? A major

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keyhole. Well in one specific case the analysis of the motion picture known as the Utah pictures

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has been withheld from the public. These pictures were taken in July of 52. They were analyzed for

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a period of four to six months by the Air Force and the Navy. And they were also analyzed by

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civilian experts who were brought into that purpose. At that time it was decided that the

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objects could not be explained as any conventional objects of any kind. They were not aircraft,

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they were not balloons, they were not reflections from birds wings. It was decided then by a group

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that believed that this should be made public that there would be a showing of this film to the press

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in Washington and a public statement would be made. A controversy arose over that which lasted

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for about two months at which time the the plan showing was killed. I was given a copy of the

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press release which was to be given out at that time and stated emphatically that these were the

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answers that they did not have any explanations for them. The Air Force therefore would not speculate

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on what they were but they showed that they were maneuvering at high speeds and as they had been

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within a five mile distance they could easily have been identified as aircraft or balloons. Later on,

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about six weeks ago, I had guarded the Air Force if they had any new venture and I was told by the

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Air Force press desk, by an official on the desk, that there was no suggestion that they might have

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been migratory birds in spite of the fact that in this analysis which has not been released to the

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public it says they could not be reflections from birds because their flight source was too

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intense and no light, no bird wing could be that reflected. I have that statement here tonight

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and be glad to show it to Mr. Leonard or anyone else. Statements seem to be a little bit confused.

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Now here is the latest from the Air Force. There have been some misconceptions concerning Air

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Force handling of flying saucer reports. One of these misconceptions is that the Air Force is either

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withholding flying saucer information from the public or cloaking it beneath a security classification.

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This is untrue and they also say that they have been very, let's see, they are, well, only a very

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few movie type films have been received by the Air Force and they reveal only 10 points of light

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moving across the sky. The Air Force has been unable to identify the source of these lights. The image

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is too small to analyze properly. They don't know what they are and I think that's a great many cases.

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We don't know but the thing that I object to is the vast jump from lack of knowledge to a

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dogmatic statement that these things are spaceships. Well, Mr. Leonard, before I go into that I would

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like to read one thing here to show that someone is not stating the truth and I would like to have

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it brought up. I have invited the Air Force and put me back on active duty and have me court

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martial for falsifying the Air Force documents if they can prove that anything I said about official

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sightings or the Utah pictures is false and I repeat that here and now. I have it, I have documents here

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which prove it. I have proof from the former head of Project Blue Book who cleared all of these

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documents for me at right field. I have a statement here by the official who gave them to me at the

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Pentagon who was assigned to do that. I can prove that every case in that book that I say is from

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the Air Force is an official sighting case that the pictures were taken, they were analyzed and they

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have not, the analysis has not been released. And still they deny that they have ever any evidence

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whatsoever that these things are false. That's right, that's two weeks ago. That's right, but here is

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their, here is what they told me repeatedly. We have no concrete evidence. Now Mr. Finlatter,

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the former Secretary of the Air Force said when he was briefed by intelligence officers in 1952

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after a series of sightings, he said there is no evidence yet, no concrete evidence to prove or

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disprove the existence of flying saucers. However, since we cannot explain a number of the sightings,

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the Air Force will continue its investigation. He said nothing about spaceships. No, but in many

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of these sightings, which I can't read here, but some of them are in the book and any that you wish to

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know, I'll be glad to show it to you. The speeds have been computed and confirmed by radar and

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intelligence certifies that the speeds were measured at speeds of thousands of miles an hour that the

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objects were solid. They don't certify any such thing major. I think they're fine. No, they don't.

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These things have been analyzed by higher sources, higher groups in the Air Force and they're concluded

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as just what I read to you. For gentlemen of the time, we'll return to that in just a moment.

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I've seen everywhere from the North Pole up to Greenland, Alaska and in every country that we

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know of except behind the Iron Cricket and there have been very few cases bought a few from that area.

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In this country, they have been seen more frequently around Air Force bases and occasionally atomic

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installations. Now that may be because there is more observation there, but it still remains the

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fact that they've been seen more frequently and that is where the Air Force has placed the 75

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new grid cameras which they have distributed around the country and spawned bases abroad

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to get pictures of these objects and try to resolve the light source.

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We have to say those cameras have seen nothing. I'm a bit delighted. What is your answer to the

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question? My answer is that the for sources are most frequently seen when in places where people

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have read the most about flying saucers. They've also been seen in places where they've had no

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flying saucer reports at all. They've been seen in Africa or far east and near east by Chinese who

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can't even read their own language. They've been seen all over the world in places where they've had

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truly been no communication about flying saucer books, articles or news sites. They've seen in

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ancient times what they call them dragons and witches. If the Air Force were convinced that what

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they're telling the public is true, why are they spending money and a lot of money to investigate

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this? Why have they scrambled jets at least 400 times in the past four years to chase unidentified

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objects? There is a standing order that any time the existence of a UFO is established on a radar

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scope that jets must be ordered along to try to intercept it. But I think that's very reasonable

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thing to do. Why don't they write it all? If the Air Force really believe what they're saying,

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why are they going to all this trouble? Is there anything, if I may interrupt, is there anything

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which has occurred lately or any recent theft taken by the Air Force to show that they are now more

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concerned perhaps before or than they officially admitted about unidentified flying objects?

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Anything specific? I think not. I think this letter I read to you is that they did December

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15th and is from the Secretary of the Air Force. Well, we will continue with our discussion in

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just a moment. Gentlemen, now we have come to the most intriguing portion of America's town meeting

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where we entertain questions from the audience directed to both of you. I would like to recognize

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that the outset, the gentleman on my left, for whom is your question intended? I would like to address

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my question to Major Kehoe. Major Kehoe, I would like to review your question. How possible is it

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for the flying saucer or the thing seen to be pilotless and to be controlled from the ground

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by the U.S. or some foreign power? Well, if such a device existed which had those speeds and

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capabilities, it could be guided by remote control just as we guide our drones or pilotless bombers.

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The next question, please. This is the letter. Would you tell us who you are, please, and where

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you are? My name is Paul Matthews. Mr. Leonard, don't you think that the Air Force may not wish

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to create panic and that is why they're withholding the information that they may have and also that

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they may have discovered that these visitors are not after all hostile or are to attack us in any way?

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Well, there's really two questions. I think the first one about they're not wanted to create

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panic. I think if they're proceeding in that way, they are being very, very remiss in their duty.

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They're supposed, the Air Force is supposed to protect us and not to allow us to live in a

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false paradise. And I think that if anyone in the Air Force tried to do that, the higher levels of

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the government, the president, the secretary of defense would immediately stop them because it

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would be the worst way to get us in trouble. And this question of having made contact with them

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and decide they're not hostile, I think in that case, I think they'd be delighted to tell us all about it.

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May I have the next question, please? Well, lady on my right. My question is addressed to Major Keel.

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Would you tell us who you are, please? My name is Eunice Sporg, and I'm from Detroit.

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My question is, is there a possibility, Major Keel, that another planet might be trying to contact

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the Earth? Well, I think that is part of the answer. Of course, there's no way of knowing

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which one it might be. It's possible it might be within our own solar system. Perhaps the Mars

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Committee, which has now been established to watch Mars as it nears the Earth, may find some evidence during the coming year.